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Transcript: 198- David G- Therapy Sessions

Updated: Nov 6, 2021

198- David G- Therapy Sessions


David G 00:00

It's weird a turns everything upside down. September 15 1993 was the worst day of my life. And now I celebrate it is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. And you know what happened when I was seven or eight years sober, that caused problems in my personal life and in my own questioning was I really, you know, was I really a good sober person? It turned into me being empathetic towards people and not being so judgy.

John M 00:30

Well, hello, friends of Bill Wu and other friends, you have landed on sober speak. My name is John M. I am an alcoholic. And we are glad you're all here, especially newcomers, newcomers that is both to recovery as a whole. And newcomers to this podcast. sober speak is a podcast about recovery centered around the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. My job here on sober speak is simple. My job is to provide a platform to the amazing stories of recovery all around us. Consider sober speak, if you will, your meeting between meetings. Please remember, we do not speak for aa or any 12 step community, we represent only ourselves. We're here to share our experience, strength and hope with those who wish to come along for the ride. Take what you want, and leave the rest at the curb for the trash man to pick up.



John M 01:38

yowza, that was the voice of my friend, Mr. David G that you heard at the beginning of this episode. In you, ladies and gents. We'll be hearing so much more from him in just a moment. But first things first on this here episode, I believe we're on Oh, let me go look real quick. I think we are on 198 if I'm not mistaken, that are real, like a professional podcaster would have this stuff actually figured out before they started recording. But I'm so sorry. You are stuck with me. And yes, it is number 198. I have confirmed that to be the case. But first things first. This episode is going right out to Patricia and Marcos and Bradley and Nadia and Terry and Anna and curtain Todd. Do you happen to know what Patricia and Marcos and Bradley and Nadia and Terry and Anna and Kurt and Todd did? Well let me fill you in. They went to our newly revised website that the lovely Mrs. M has set up during her spare time. they clicked on the little yellow Pay Pal donate tab, and they made a contribution. So thank you, Patricia, and Marcos and Bradley and Nadia and Terry and Anna and Kurt and Todd. This episode is coming right out to ya. Thank you so much i, John M. Just another bozo on the bus will be the chairperson for this meeting between meetings and I am truly honored and privileged to serve all of you listening in. So take a seat if you will around this virtual table and let's get started. Remember, no matter who you are, or what your past looks like, yeah, talking to you. You are welcome here it is an open table to all and we are excited that you have joined us. So I've got a couple things go through my little pea brain right now. One of them is do I want to share what I just got back from and you know what, here goes nothing. Now keep in mind folks, this is not a what would you call it? A

John M 04:36

this is nothing I neither endorse nor oppose. I'm just kind of sure in my experience, strength and hope so. Recently I wanted to kind of turn a kind of works in with what we're calling this episode and why we ended up calling it that but nonetheless I have recently been going to a I guess you'd call her a therapist. And the therapist is a, she specializes in a technique, I guess, is what you call it is called brain spotting. Now you can go and look that up on the internet if you like. But it's very interesting. It all kind of deals with, you know, trauma and that kind of stuff. And I've been like four or five times now, and I've been reticent to actually share about it. Because, you know, I don't know, I just, I don't know if this particular podcast is the place to do such like something like that. But obviously, I'm sure you're right now, and I just wanted you to know, I've been doing it. And it actually puts me in a different place. And the reason I'm thinking about it right now, is because I just did it a couple hours ago. And it's kind of makes me a little bit low energy a little bit more mellow, which is fine. I need to be a little bit more low energy and a little bit more mellow a lot of the time. But anyway, if you're interested in just checking it out, you can look it up, like I said, on the internet, brain spotting SPO t t i n g. And you're more than welcome to send me an email john J-O-H-N at sober speak dot com, if you have any sort of feedback on that. And here is a big announcement, I guess is what you would call this. Guess what folks? between me and you? This particular podcast sober speak podcast now has 1 million unique downloads. Could you believe that? between me and you, we made all this happen? You know, I remember. And by the way, most of that's happened over the first couple years, like the first year this is just like me and a few of my buddies who are listening in and you know, I'd call some friends from a meeting over, come over to record them. And I go, let me see if I can figure out how to get this thing out on the internet would do it and I'd be Oh, wow. Hey, we got it out there. Oh, it sounds horrible. You know, the the sound is horrible. And you know, I wasn't great with questions or anything like that. Still not fantastic. But nonetheless, we would get it out there. But now we actually have 1 million downloads. And you know, when I realized that's just a number, and it's not really about the number, but it does kind of give you a hmm some sort of guideposts if you will for I guess we're reaching some folks out there. And it seems like from all the feedback that I get in you guys are wonderful about sending in both emails and you send in you know, messages via Instagram and Facebook and wherever you are sending those things in. And I'm just I'm so thankful for y'all. I really am. And thank you for listening. I know you have. So, so many things you could be doing with your time. And the fact that you come in here and listen to my silly little podcast. Hopefully, we're helping some people in all four corners of the world that I really do appreciate y'all really do. Alright, now on to Mr. David G. And the title of this particular episode is called therapy's session. Now you're going to hear as we start out, discussing the 12 step. And we're really going to focus on as a result of these steps but as usual, when the Spirit enters the picture, I never know really where we're going to go with these conversations. But as our conversation did many times we meandered quite a bit I would love you to listen in. Let me know what you think. We would absolutely love to hear from you. By the way. Um, I know my friend David is go if you're in the Oklahoma City area, he is going to be speaking at the Oklahoma City

John M 09:07

city wide conference and that is coming up at the end of August. I'm assuming you can just google Oklahoma City city wide and see it there but if you have any questions feel free to send me an email and I will point you in the right direction. That is john j o h n at sober speak dot com once again, if you're not following us on Instagram, it's at sober speak all one word. If you want to be in the super secret Facebook group, look up secret Facebook group on Facebook and ask to be request admission into the group and we will gladly let you in. Now on to Mr. David G. And we will have plenty listener feedback at the end of This episode, enjoy David. Okay, everybody. So today, once again, back in the sober speak hot seat, I guess I would say is Mr. David G a fan favorite, if we want to call it that for sure. So, David, my friend, why don't you go ahead, introduce yourself. Give your sobriety date if you would, and tell people which area of the country that you live in.

David G 10:35

Hey, everybody, I'm David. I'm an alcoholic, sober since September 15 of 1993. So I'm Texas born and raised and live in the Frisco area about a half mile from from John.

John M 10:49

So we are back at it again. David. Last time we got together first of all, we started this I, I don't know a year and a half ago or so. At first I had you come in we kind of gave your story or you You gave your story. And then after that we got together we did another episode. And then I kind of decided somebody had written in and said, Hey, I think you did step one or step two, someone wrote in and say, Hey, can you have David do the rest of the steps. So we started this thing where you would come back over, you would do another step. And so we've been at it for a while. And now we're at step 12. And the last episode we did regarding step 12 was on having had a spiritual awakening dot dot dot was actually the name of the, the episode. And now we are kind of up to so as a result of these steps, we tried to carry the message to other alcoholics. And we'll probably carry the practicing these principles in all our affairs that next time, I don't know exactly where we're going to get but so do you want to kind of go over just real quickly? What I mean, not in detail, but what your thoughts are on at least the first part of step 12, having had a spiritual awakening, and then go, just go right into as the result of these steps.

David G 12:14

Yeah, you know, the concept of having had a spiritual awakening was a very abstract thing to me. I, I don't know if I was purposefully prejudice against the idea of spirituality, if it was, you know, something ingrained in me from childhood, you know, the hypocrisy you see in the world. And you know, not to go on and on, but just not seening behaviors match up with public proclamations of belief. And I think that I came in here jaded, you know, just like step chapter four in the big book is all about we agnostics, and it's about prejudice. And it's about what we come into here with and my inability to put my mind around something and you know, the big book tells us we can put our mind around lunares travel, and no doubt will do it. But yet we shutter or recoil from this idea that there is some higher power that could possibly help us in any way. And I, I definitely struggled with that. And I didn't have some long conversation with a spiritual person and figure that out. When it says having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, that is where my spiritual awakening happened. The first time I knew something had changed. And I don't I would be shocked if I haven't talked about this with you guys before but I can't remember is I had a what I call the gut. The gut was this feeling that I had, it was kind of like falling in love and being you know, super super, like intoxicated with another person kind of mixed with a nausea that you might vomit from fear all inside my abdomen. And I had it around relationships and losses of relationships and gaining of relationships. But I also had it in relation to my compulsion to use drugs and alcohol. And when that was on me, I began to call it the gut. And it was a physiological occurrence. So when I had gotten through most of my ninth step amends, you know, when I say most of them, I'd say probably more than half but not all, my sponsor, we sat down and we read step 10, in the big book, and it talked about being placed in a position of neutrality. And when I had the recognition that I had been in a position of neutrality for months now that I had not fought off the gut that I had not thought off the thought and obsession of a drink. It was a miraculous event. For me, it was a spiritual experience, because I knew that I would spend the rest of my life like that book that I probably never read that men live lives of quiet desperation. I knew at that moment that I did not have to live a life of quiet desperation in regards to the gut in regards to my compulsion, and obsession to use drugs and alcohol. So, now you talk about spiritual experience in terms of what else is it just about not drinking. And obviously, so many more things have happened in my life. Because I've been doing this, I'm 53 years old, I've been sober coming up on 28 years. And I continue constantly trying to increase, grow, and have a better spiritual experience, you know, a better ability to harness my relationship with my higher power with God, when I need it, you know, it's when I don't need it, when everything's going my way, when I'm getting accolades at work, and at home and with friends, when when people are treating me Well, when the lights are green, at every stop on the way to where I'm going, I don't really have this like deep need to reach out to God. I'm not going to say that I don't thank God when those wonderful things are happening, because I do, but it's not some deep need that if I don't get it together, things are going to go south, because I'll tell you, I handle success. Pretty comfortably. I like it. But obviously, I've had a lot of failure in my life, a lot of failure that is just prone to humanity, loss death, people not liking me, not having every light be green on the way to a meeting, I'm late to and on and on and on. And it's during those times when I well up with anks an irritation. And I would describe it because I'm super like I'm full of hyperbole when it comes to how life mistreats me when it's happening, that like, I feel like I'm in a fight with 10 guys, and they've got me on the ground and I can't get up, I can feel that way on the way to the grocery store. So it's not like I have these horribly traumatic things happening. But of course, like everybody, I lose people, you know, in step 12 in the in the 12 and 12. It talks about that type of event, it talks about what happens when life hands you a lump that you can't even swallow, let alone digest. And I have those events like everyone else in sometimes they're really real things, the death of my mother, the death of my father, the loss of my marriage, I mean, things that have happened in my sobriety that were virtually impossible for me to handle on my own. And that is what I'm talking about what has developed in me and it started with the recognition that I no longer had the gut in terms of drugs and alcohol is it has grown to a place where I know that I'm not alone. That whatever it is, I it doesn't matter how I define my higher power, the higher power that lives within me and lives around me and lives in all the people that I see and touch and in I believe flows between us that I know because of all of these things that have happened in my life and knowing that I can't handle it on my own. And having had tried my very best to rely on that, that I am able to turn that corner, I am able to stop and recognize my own inadequacy, and not in a way that I'm beating myself up for not being tough enough and not being able to pull myself up by my own bootstraps, but recognize my inadequacy, and that there's no need for me to go it alone. In some of those things are not just prayer, they are reaching out to my friends, they are doing a type of meditation that guides me in the direction of being at peace. They are reading things and going to therapy and getting the help I need whatever that looks like, you know, it's not just me, and my higher power against the world. It's me in the world and my higher power trying to function together.

John M 18:54

So I want to ask you about that real quick. So in you've been pretty open in meetings about this lately. You mentioned therapy there. And not basically just depending upon a only and what it says in the book regarding, you know, reaching outside of the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous for help. Why don't you talk about that a little bit.

David G 19:21

So I thought I had a really great childhood. You know, I hated my dad when I got sober. My dad is deceased now. And I've in case he's listening. He knows that we ended the last years of his life, his very great friends, but we had a lot of difficulty in early sobriety. But I didn't think that that that that that meant that I had such a bad childhood. I thought that my mom hung the moon and that she was the most wonderful person in the world and that you know, she was humble and she was all those things. But the problem was, is she said things that push my buttons and all of a sudden I would be yelling at her in sobriety. And again, my mom and I had a beautiful life and if beautiful relationship, especially at the end of her life, but throughout other than during my really heavy active addiction, I would, I would say my mom considered me one of her best friends that she ever had. And I know I feel that way about her. But something was wrong. Something was inside of me, I did the steps over and over, I remember that year after year, I couldn't even put my mom on my resentment inventory, because I couldn't think of anything that I resented her for. Because she was always there for me even as an enabler, which of course, we alcoholics, when we're drinking love are enablers. And yet, like I said, I would find myself so angry at her, I would be literally freaking out and have to apologize to her later, because I would say such horrible things to her. And, you know, I was not unwinding all that stuff, you know, and I would go to go to a little bit of marriage counseling here and there. And I never got too deep, because I didn't want anything that was wrong with me to be found out, I think, you know, I wanted to kind of hide from some of the realities of what, you know, some of the symptoms were of this spiritual sickness that was still inside of me. And at the time that I got, when I was in the process of getting divorced. At the time, I didn't know I was in the process of getting divorced. But that's what was happening. I was in really very intensive therapy. And they, the woman who I went to, I had a therapist, my now ex wife had a therapist, and we had a couples therapist, but the person that I went to, did a thing called EMDR. And it has to do with trauma. And I would have told you before I did it, that I didn't have trauma, because I thought trauma meant that you had to been in the Vietnam War, or in some horrible car rack or had like a serial killer, come to your house and kill everyone in your family. You know, that's what I viewed as trauma, these incredibly insane events. And I really didn't have things like that, you know, I, my dad spanked me really way too hard a couple times, but I really wasn't beaten, I wasn't molested. You know, whatever, you know, I just didn't have that type of stuff. And as we're going through the events of my life, I did find myself kind of welling up in, in, in tears talking about certain episodes in my childhood. And I'm not going to get specific about those because this would become a therapy session, and we'd be on this thing all day. But I'll just suffice to say that my therapist suggests that I try this trauma therapy. And so I did this with her in relation to some things that had to do with my mom. And, and everything about the way I reacted to feeling abandoned, went away. And you know, I mean, I use the word abandoned, in the sense that my mom didn't abandon me, like, leave me forever, she would forget to pick me up from things and that kind of thing. And when I was an adult, and like, I would feel like someone had forgotten about me forgotten about what I needed, from them forgotten about what they had told me they would do, or just no longer wanted to be with me at a moment, I would get this feeling inside of just like abject rejection. And it didn't make sense,

John M 23:13

you know, in other words, the reaction was a little overdone. If you're way over done.

David G 23:19

And I make the great thing about Alcoholics Anonymous, is it makes it possible for me to keep my mouth shut. I mean, the very first thing we all learn is learn how to be quiet, you know, and my grandfather used to tell me that when I was a little boy, he'd say, the true sign of an intelligent man are the things he chooses not to say. Now, before I got sober, I wasn't able to do that, because I get drunk and say everything on my mind. And then I go, I said that because I was drunk, but the truth was, I got drunk because I wanted to tell you, I hated you. But that's a whole nother story. And so he gives us this ability to be quiet, but being quiet doesn't work through the pain that's going on inside of me. The other thing that Alcoholics Anonymous did really well for me, and I'm sure it does for other people, is it taught me how to be of service. It taught me we're going to talk about it, how to carry the message to newcomers how to be at meetings, how to make coffee, how to give people rides, how to be selfless, you know, and in the act of being selfless, I feel better. You know, you could talk about the chemicals involved. But oxytocin is the main chemical that's released in our body when we are doing a kind act for another person. And it overwhelms all other feelings. That's the amazing thing about oxytocin and about being of service is when we release oxytocin into our system. We feel so good about ourselves for doing it that all of the bad inside of us is at least masked for a while

John M 24:39

it's got God's got the game rig there.

David G 24:42

Yeah, he's got the game rigged in a good way You know, it makes us It makes my you know, we say this an AI and God only knows when we say it, we probably aren't talking about specifically what I'm about to say. But we say a is a selfish program. And you know, in a lot of ways, AIA is the opposite of a selfish program. But in regards to this, it is a selfish program, because I had a lot of damage in me that I did not get to with this steps as hard as I tried. I've worked the steps many, many, many, many times. And maybe someone who's listening may say, Well, if you would have done it the way I did it, you would have gotten to it. And I get that, because I would have said that to you when I was a few years sober, you know, but I tried to get to it with the steps and I didn't. And yet, by being doing these things for other people and sponsoring all these people, and being on the steering committee and doing all these things, I was masking and covering up a lot of the stuff that I didn't know how to get to. And I went to therapy pretty hardcore, starting when I was about 19 years sober. And I went pretty steadily for a few years, and then I took a break and now I've started up again. And what I got to with that professional therapist, has been life changing for me.

John M 25:55

Okay, so let me do a little break and we're going to get to that. Okay. We will be continuing our conversation with David G. In just a moment. Excuse me, just a reminder, you are listening to sober speak, you can find us on the worldwide web at www dot sober You can also find the donate button on our website which you can use if and only if the spirit moves you to do such Please keep in mind this is a podcast funded by you avail listener. sober speak is a self supporting organization through our own contributions. We are not allied with any sect, denomination politics, organization or institution, we do not wish to engage in any controversy. Neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Alright, now back to Mr. David GC, you said that it was life changing. So talk about that?

David G 26:47

Well, it changed the way I reacted to a lot of things is the first thing I started to notice. You know, even I had a pretty strenuous therapy session this past week. And when I left that therapy session, I felt exhausted, I felt like I had just like, you know, run a 5k or something. And, and then as the days have passed, it's only been not even, it's just been about two days, I started to recognize a little bit more peace about me, you know, I've got a lot going on in my life. It's very hectic, you know, I run multiple businesses, I've got small children in my house. I've got all kinds of things going on. And sometimes I feel overwhelmed. And what I've been doing with my therapist is trying to clear out some of the stuff that's going on inside of me that shouldn't be so that I can just deal with the things in my life that are actually happening. She said, it's like when you let stuff pile up on you. It's like it's building up and up and up until you're almost drowning in it. And then one little more thing is too much for you to take. And it seems like you're getting a little too crazy about the kids throwing jello all over the back porch. But today, when they threw jello all over the back porch, I just went and got the hose out and hose it off. I didn't yell and scream at anyone. And that's a change. You know, I was joking at a meeting yesterday I said I don't think anyone's written a book called shock and awe parenting. And that's because a lot of times when I'm not in a good place, I find myself being a shock and awe parent, you know, I'm not a physical person, at least in terms of, you know, hitting or spanking or anything like that. But I can really scare the hell out of a little kid. And and I feel guilty about it after I do it. And so some of this is now that I'm parenting stepchildren is that I try to be the best step that I can be to those step children. And I know that if I'm walking around with tons of baggage that I now know that I've walked around with it, you know, once you know something, you're not going to not know it. And in my in my case, and I hope in all of everyone's cases, but I know it's it's not the case with everyone, once I know it, it's my responsibility to do something about it. And so, some people will say, Oh, you know, Everything I need is in the 164 pages in the big book. And I agree with that to an extent I do I agree to it with it fully. Actually. I am a big book Thumper in a Nazi. I mean, I am the guy who when you ask me to sponsor you, we don't you don't call me every day. In fact, I asked you not to because I'm busy. And I can't take calls every day just checking in. I'm the guy who says okay, you have a big book. Let's start highlighting. Let's get your spiral. Let's start making lists about personal powerlessness. Let's set up a time every week. And we're going to meet every week and go through the steps. I am a step taking big book guy who goes through every page of the big book with every one of my sponsees. That being said, there are things that the big book tells me I need to do when it's talking about prayer and meditation. It tells you look at spiritual teachers from all these different religions. They've been doing meditation for years, millennia. The idea that we can't learn from the Christians are the Jews of the Muslims of the Wiccans are though Hari Krishna is or whoever we want to learn from certainly the Buddhists, we are told in the big book to look to those things outside of a. And we are also told to take advantage of professionals, of doctors of psychiatrists of whoever we need. The big book does not ever say, never read anything else. But the big book. In fact, it says things like, we know, but a little more will be revealed. I mean, the 12 until I hear people that refuse their spot, I don't know if it's their sponsors, or what they refuse to own the 12 and 12, a book written by the same people who wrote the big book, it's amazing to me that there would be this kind of, I don't know, obsession with the 164 pages with 164 pages themselves. Tell us to look outside of them.

John M 30:55

Yeah. Okay. So I want to go ahead. And what is next, I want you to tell a little bit about what I heard you saying about Bill Wilson the other day, when you were actually in a meeting. And when you said when you when he experimented with psychedelics and stuff like that. So well, let's just say, before we go on with that. I know, this is one of those episodes, which I as we're recording it, I know, we're going to hit hot buttons out there, right? Oh, yeah. And I don't mind doing that, as long as we do within the confines of, you know, healthy discussion, which is what I believe we're doing right here. I know not everyone's gonna agree with what you're saying. And there will be a lot of people that do agree with what you're saying. And, but I do want to say, you know, I try to go by the tradition as best I can, in this podcast itself, is not either endorsing nor opposing, outside treatment, I don't think that's what you're saying, No, you're not at all, you're sharing your experience, right. And if somebody were to come up to you and ask you what your experiences with outside help, this is the experience you would give them. And I think that that's a healthy thing. Now what I have found that for myself, when I'm in a meeting, and somebody possibly says something that, that I don't agree with, or I don't or you know, I'm having troubles with it. Well, for me, that helps me to actually clarify in my own set, crystallize within my own self, what my position is, and I hope that people can do that by listening to this. Alright, so now, I just want I just want everybody to know, you could take the year, right?

David G 32:40

We there has to be a disclaimer to anything. I mean, I hate to say, but I know it because I'm not, you know, I'm not an idiot, that these are things that can easily be viewed as controversial. I don't believe that they're controversial. Because if I know people who are my close friends who I love, and I respect their sobriety, who absolutely don't feel like they need therapy, or doctors or any and that's totally fine. You know, the, the great thing about ABA is it allows us to find our place on the path that works best for us. That's fine, we're always on the path. There is no, there is really no crystallization, there is a clarification that may happen at any time. But those clarifications change as we grow. You know, wisdom comes by not dying and paying attention. Just like sobriety happens by not dying and not drinking. And so what I am talking about has been my take in. So when I was about two or three years sober. And I was lit up with my spiritual experience. I mean, the idea that it now been two or three years since I had had any interest whatsoever in using drugs and alcohol was like an unparalleled miracle in my life. When people would come in and be picking up desire chip after desire chip, I had been that guy, I was the guy from 1991 till the end of 93. When I got sober, who picked up desire chips every month, two months, three months, I just could not keep a crack pipe and a beer bottle out of my mouth. And so when I would see this people picking up over and over, I was so lit up with what had happened to me. So I mean, I was almost like a preacher, you know, just extolling the greatness of our God that's manifested through the big book and all of that is still true. I still believe that I do believe that our higher power has manifested through the power of the steps in the big book, right? What has changed in me is this idea that we're the only ones who figured it out. You know, that is where I got off. Off. off for a while. I got off on this idea that because I had found a solution that really worked for me that it was the only solution, I had the exact same

John M 35:07

experience. And

David G 35:08

I think everyone has to have that long term sobriety, if you don't have that experience, you may not have long term sobriety, because you may not have had the overwhelming change inside that it takes a psychic change sufficient for recovery, when you're a dope fiend, alcoholic drunk crazy ass like I was, it's going to take a pretty significant psychic change to be possible for me to be in the position I'm in today, which is it's no big deal that I haven't drank since 1993. And the reason it's no big deal, because I haven't had the compulsion or the obsession. So back to this two to three years sober. I would hear people old timers in the program, like I got divorced when I was I think 21 year sober, 22 years sober. And I would hear that, and I get a little bit of the rumors about what happened, you know, oh, you know, I think he, you know, stuck out on his old lady or, or he caught her, bla bla bla, and I would, I would think in my head, you know, if you work the steps the way I do, you wouldn't have these problems. I mean, what unbelievably arrogant way to think, and there is one thing I've grown certain of in these years of sobriety. That is, I need to beat not be so certain of myself, that I need not to make my thinking my higher power, that I need to not think that my opinions have to apply to everyone. Or else they're not doing things the right way. And that's a that seems like really like Mr. obvious.

John M 36:45

But it's really not,

David G 36:46

it is a major problem in the world about us, that we cannot allow other people to feel and believe differently than we feel and believe. You know, it's like, worshipping my own thought life. And it's not healthy. Now. It's not, you know, and that's why I think we talk so much about getting out of ourselves. You know, I had the first real kind of moral downfall experience, where I made really bad decisions and caused harm when I was about eight or nine years sober up into that point. I mean, I was a sunbeam for a just absolutely did never really feel like doing anything wrong was just making more money and being a better dad and being a better husband and in letting people in front of me in traffic and paying for the tide box that I accidentally walked out at the grocery store with. And I just felt like doing it. It felt good. I remember we had a head gasket blow on our car, and I just got my first bonus at about two years. I probably told this story before, but it's really funny. Because the way my wife reacted it we got I got a $2,000 Christmas bonus. And we were all excited about Christmas. And we pull up to the bank to deposit the cheque and steam started coming out of our car. And we take it to the a mechanic Joe and he calls me goes, man, you're not gonna like this, but it's your head gasket. And I like oh, no, no, I said how much it goes gonna be about 1950. And I remember thinking at that moment, oh my god, I just got a check for $2,000 what would we have done. And my wife heard what it was collapsed on the floor in grief and then screamed at me, you and your bleep and a because, you know, I was lifted up at that moment by what seemed like a miracle to me, even in the midst of a horrible occurrence. So flash forward, it's now eight, nine years sober. And I'm getting I guess Seven Year Itch or something. And I acted inappropriately and embarrassed myself at least to myself, a lot of people didn't most people didn't know about it. But it certainly was something that happened in my home with my wife and my family. And I there's a I don't know where it comes from. But there's this line that says all men have clay feet. And what they're referring about is even the most perfect and well moral people in the world have human frailties. And I learned at that time about my human frailties. And I became it's weird a turns everything upside down. You know, like, September 15 1993 was the worst day of my life. And now I celebrate it is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. And you know what happened when I was seven or eight years sober, that caused problems in my personal life? And in my own questioning was I really, you know, was I really a good sober person? Is it it turned into me being empathetic towards people and not being so judgy you know, I was super judgy I'm the last person in the world that should be judgy about anyone or anything at any time. And yet in early sobriety, the first 356 years, I just was super judgy and I didn't mean To be I didn't even know I was until I kind of stepped out of myself and looked down like God does and thought, Man, David, when these people make mistakes, and a, it's not your job to judge them, it's your job to go to them and love them and give them something that you maybe can offer to help them have a better life. Even if it's just saying, Hey, man, you want to go get a cup of coffee, or whatever, you know, I just didn't do that. Well, until I started to suffer my own, you know foibles.

John M 40:27

So, want to go back to something I asked about a little while ago, and then I got you off track with some other conversation. But we were talking about the outside help. And I and I appreciated your history lesson, I guess a little bit. Oh, about Bill Wilson. Yeah. And Can Can you talk about that.

David G 40:45

So my understanding is that bill Wilson suffered from horrible depression. Okay, now, I'm not going to get into a bunch of specifics, because I don't know specifics, I've heard about the, like, unlicenced bill Wilson memoir that talks about this, but he was going to a lot of therapy, because he was extremely depressed for many years in a, and you know, back then in the 30s, and 40s, and 50s, they didn't have seratonin replacements. I mean, they didn't really know how to help people, you know, people were severely depressed. And they pretty much it was either some sort of therapy, or you were severely depressed, there wasn't a pill to replace your serotonin that would make your brain work better. And so he went in the 50s, I believe, and did some therapy using psychedelics. And this is before LSD was known as a street drug, this was a drug that was being used to try to help people psychologically, and my understanding is, is that he did a few sessions where he was put on psychedelics, and they used it to try to create new pathways in his mind, so that he could have a better experience with life. And people talk about that, you know, I've heard it almost like as a rumor na that had happened. And with kind of this viewpoint, we'll see builder that he's not really sober, you know, and I think that that goes hand in hand with is kind of judging us that people can have an AA, including me, I don't have it anymore in terms of that. But I used to, I remember when my first wife had postpartum depression, you know, I just think thought she needed to improve her spiritual life. And, you know, our therapist looked at me and said, What did you go to med school? And, you know, I was like, Oh, I guess not, you know, because, again, I worshiped my thinking. I have a completely different viewpoint of it. And I'll tell you, I have not done any therapy with psychedelics. I'm not saying I never would, I don't really have severe depression. But I do know, people who have now that they're doing it again, because they stopped doing it when they criminalized LSD, back in the 50s. And that's why he wasn't able to do it anymore. But my thought today, and I have no way to answer this. And no one probably does is the reason bill Wilson was able to stay sober the rest of his life tied to his ability to get through his depression because of that therapy. I mean, I don't know the answer to that. But he certainly didn't do it to go get high. He did it so that he could find a way through dark dark times in his mind. And I respect that. I respect that bill wrote in the big book, and in most of his literature, go get help, because he knew that he had to go get help to make it through alcoholism.

John M 43:38

Yeah, that that is. I love that thought. And I like thinking about it. And I don't know if it helped him or not, you know, like you said, Who knows, but I am glad that he isn't that basically what they do nowadays, though, with people in terms of doing therapy. It is it is a lot

David G 43:58

of it is a lot of control, to control that with MDMA, which is ecstasy, they do it with psilocybin, which is mushrooms, they do it with LSD, and they do it with ketamine. And these treatments are psychedelic treatments that are very controlled environment and they walk people through trauma and the people's trauma gets better. And once again, I

John M 44:19

want to point out we don't have never done any of it. Neither have I tell you about it. If I did, I'm open book. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's very interest. I

David G 44:28

do. I think it's interesting. And I think that a welcomes us investigating that. You know, I have gotten a tremendous amount of help, you know, since we're talking about it, and I said I would tell you, I've done EMDR multiple times with the same therapist a few years ago

David G 44:45

and so explained to people it's I'm eye movement ri D I can't think of what the D stands. That's all right. But is he an acronym, right? Yeah,

David G 44:57

er, and it's a thing with your eyes moving Back and forth, they use paddles that send signals to your hands just to make your brand go left and right. And it allows your brain to begin to build pathways between your limbic system and your cerebral cortex. And it stops these things that are controlling you underneath your subconscious. They make them part of your conscious, and you're able to just live with them and not have them control you in negative ways. I've also started a new thing for me, it's called brain spotting. And it's another form of therapy that doesn't involve any drugs, where your therapist takes you into these places where you feel a lot of pain, and helps you to mme brain mapping.

John M 45:42

Is that the same thing? Yes, brain mapping,

David G 45:44

brain mapping, brain spotting, I'm sorry, brain mapping, yes, sorry, wrong word. And it's it's a, it's a, you do some physical cueing, that is supposed to help you, again, be able to metabolize these things that lurk under the surface, you know, there's a great line in the 12 and 12. It's in step eight, and it's talking about and I probably talked about it on the podcast, because I've thought it is so important in my life, it says, very deep, quite forgotten. Emotional conflicts persist below the level of consciousness. At the time of these occurrences, they may have actually caused violent twists to our character, which have discolored our personalities for life. So so that's not exact, but that's pretty close. Right?

John M 46:30

So just real quick, do you know of Bill was writing that? And, you know, I know you're not a historian, but was he writing that before? After these treats must have

David G 46:38

been right around the time? The bit? I think the 12 and 12 was 12 or 13 years after the Big Book, which was in what 1939 39 it was the early 50s that he's doing that stuff.

John M 46:51

Okay. I'm sure there's somebody out there that

David G 46:53

I would love to know it. You know, I please don't think I'm some no at all about this. I'm just trying to take all this in like the rest of you. And I welcome a discussion about this with anyone that is interested in it. Yeah. And

John M 47:05

if you're if you are interested in that john j. o h ns over speak, calm, and I will get you over to David.

David G 47:10

Yeah, I talked to people on sober speak regularly. You know, I've made a lot, several friends from all over the planet from because of sober speak, and I'm an AIA guy, I go to meetings every day, if you want to talk about this, or educate me on it. I welcome it, because I would love to know more. And I tell you, I would love to know more, because it has made it possible. You know, I don't we were talking about maybe talking about sponsorship, you know, the question becomes when we have had this spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, and we try to carry this message. What's the message? I can tell you this at one year sober when I was sponsoring people like crazy, the message was not the same. as it is today. The big book is the same. The step instructions are the same. But my experiences in sobriety over the past 27 years are in measurable in terms of what I have had to use the steps to go through. So the message, what we're talking about right now, which probably seems a little weird. Yeah, it's all part of the message.

John M 48:20

It is it is but but I will say this, okay, so we started this, as you know, wanting to go into the the middle part of the 12 step. Right. I because I'm curious about the things you've been talking about why they got you way off track? No, I

David G 48:36

think it is on track to catch on. I really do think it's on track. You know, this, we I really believe that we draw this box around things that we compartmentalize things. And I don't think that this conversation should be compartmentalised. You know, I think that the all 12 steps, that the only thing that set makes the step separate is that we've numbered them. I don't believe that there is any less connection to one and 12 is there is the three and four or four and five, they are all intertwined. And I am guilty of

John M 49:11

like, I kind of think in chronological terms and linear term one through 12. And it's actually what helps me get this thing out on a consistent basis. Right. But organization because it's like a organizational skill. However, I do. I completely concur with what you're saying. But where I was kind of going with that is, is that? I think, you know, in my head, I'm thinking, Okay, what's the title of this episode? And we've gotten a little bit off track of what we're going to talk about to begin with. And, and, and I think, Well, I think the best thing to do is go ahead, wrap this one up. And then we're going to come back again and talk about the 12 step at an even deeper level or different subjects within the 12 step.

David G 49:58

Right. I mean, we haven't even talked at all about working with sponsors,

John M 50:03

right? That's what I'm saying

David G 50:04

about you being my sponsor and what that means. Because it's not it's not the same. I mean, we've worked the steps together, mostly in step studies. Yeah, I don't even do my fist steps with you every time I do my fist steps with, like, random people who I wanted to get some other input, you know, right.

John M 50:22

So that's what I mean, I want to take like a whole episode and talk about like, just because I have so many people that write me in about sponsorship, what is sponsorship? And how do you sponsor? How do you find a sponsor all that, so we could take a whole session talking about that, and practicing these principles in all our affairs. And there's just so much more to dive in the nature

David G 50:42

of relationships changes so much from when I get sober until whenever I'm not alive anymore. You know, it has done nothing but change. And it's a good thing, you know, not, you know, the only thing that's constant in my life is Alcoholics Anonymous in the big book, but everything that the tendrils of a which like permeates every level of my existence, all of those things have changed.

John M 51:14

And we're gonna get together and talk about Oh, yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, so I mean, real, I mean, you live is, as you just referenced earlier, we live very near each other. And it's just a matter of both of us fitting it into our fairly hectic schedules, which is a good thing I you know, we both have, you know, lives and families and the whole nine yards. And so that's good. So all right, I'm gonna read, as I always do, from page 164 of the big book, by the way, I don't usually start here, but just because of where what you have been talking about. I'm going to start a little bit. I'm gonna start the paragraph before. It says our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little God will constantly to disclose more to you and to us. Ask him in your morning meditations, will you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come if your own house and is in order. But obviously, you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it, that your relationship with him is right. And great events will come to pass for you and countless others. That is the great fact and capital letters for us. A banner yourself to God as you understand God, admit your faults to him and to your fellows. Clear the way the wreckage of your past. give freely of what you find to join us. We shall be with you in the fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the road of happy destiny. May God bless you and keep you Until then, once again, Mr. David G. Thank you for coming by. Always fun, good to talk with you. Thank you again, David g we will be having David g back on the pod real soon. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, if you're in the Oklahoma area or if you're not near there and you just want to drive in and see David speak. He will be speaking at the oklahoma city wide event and that is in Oklahoma City. And as the at the end of August I think I'm sorry, I should have looked this up as either the last Friday or the last Saturday. I got a feeling it's the last Saturday of the month in OKC. And my friend Randy l wrote in to request his presence and I was happy to have those two up and I know David I've seen him speak many times you'll absolutely love Him and He gives you a chance to meet him eyeball to eyeball Arma DM me on the Instagram and Irma says Allah john double exclamation point comma s star mi ne Hor. amigo de bill and that is spelled for those of you who don't know Spanish and I'm not sure exactly what this means is m EJO are not m e w h o r e. He says oh john comma is Stan MI. Ne Hor. amigo de bill cheese. She's kind of mocking me from some previous episodes where I have struggled with my S Pen. Yo. She says I just wanted to say hi. I love listening to your intros and all The emails people send you crack me up in a big old smiley face from Irma. And then she says, I know you have mentioned that people skip through your intros. I even heard that nice lady's voice message about it. You are one tough cookie not to let this bother you. Oh, very much. She says I guess that's one more thing we learned in the program not to feel sorry for ourselves and not to take ourselves so serious. That's right Irma. She says I am a couple of weeks away from being three years sober, and I am so grateful for how much my life has changed. big heart, she says anyway, I guess that's it. amigo. laters la te RZ later, like, like potaters eaten potaters laters. Nonetheless, I digress. Thank you so much. Irma appreciate you right nim.

John M 56:01

Brad writes in, and he says 135 and never felt so good. And what the 135 is referring to the number of days Brad has been sober. He says john, greetings from this sober guy. Some time back. Oh, he says let's call it August September. Last year, I reached out thanking you for your service and these invaluable meetings between meetings. Over the past five years. I struggled with alcohol in March of this year, my wheels quote, blue, unquote, off the wagon falling off is an understatement. I did something I've never done before. I didn't just attend a meeting and look at the hardest step I've ever taken. I didn't just attend a meeting and took the hardest step I've ever taken. I truly admitted I was powerless over alcohol. I said it in outpatient treatment and meetings. This time is different. I have a sponsor and a brother and the lights are on and Brad is in the house.

John M 57:19

But I'm so glad you were in the house. rather he says I attend daily zooms, communicate with my sponsor, journal and pray but most important, I listened to your helpful podcast. Well, if I had to get rid of one of those, I'd get rid of my podcasts but I appreciate your kind words. He says I don't I don't need my email read. Oh. Well, sorry, buddy. Um, we were there he says that don't need my email read. Now he's not saying don't read it. But he says he doesn't need to read. He says I just wanted you to know how much in big capital letters I appreciate you e capital letters. I'm on to the seven step. I don't rush. I don't expect I just let it flow. FYI, that's not always easy. I get you Brad. He says as I've heard too many times, just do the work. I show up and do what you people tell me to do I get it. I'll check in on the 180 day one ad on the Sooners, what he means he says your brother in a Brad our thanks for keeping me up to date, Brad. And I'll look forward today. One a zero a day at a time, right? Jason writes in and he says hey, john, I live in Keller, Texas, which is in Yeah, no, that is he says North East Fort Worth. And I've been here since 2019. Prior to that my wife and I lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I know about rule Louisiana master j song. He says I recently met Rick Divya. Yes, I know Rick, who is my friend and a meeting over there in the I am bet you were at the What's it called? Get in the car group. I'm almost I bet you anything. That's where you met him. But anyway, in a meeting here in the Metroplex, and we begin to talk and he informed me about sober speak. In fact, he was one of your guest speakers. Yes. I remember Mr. Rick. Yeah, he was a great guest if you haven't heard Rick Oh gosh, I can't remember his name of his it was a real Oh, in Oh, I know. It was insanity. doesn't have an expiration day was the title of his episode so you could go back and look that one up. Anyway says I have listened to quite a few of the episodes and I find many of the speakers to be fascinating. I really enjoyed the q&a format. Matthew M is great. I've heard him say several. I've heard him several times on speaker tapes but much more in depth in his series with you, Jenny, Jennifer h k is a riot. Sometimes we need a good laugh and recovery. And she is one to deliver that you're correct about that. Jason. He says, You often mentioned the secret Facebook group, I would love to join the group can I be added my email is such as such. As you know, Jason, you got in that group? I just emailed you back and said to find soup, actually find secret Facebook group and Facebook asked to be admitted. And we get Yeah. What's their name? Facebook changed their ways on me. So I bet I realized people are listening to past episodes and hear that. So thank you very much, Jason. Jay, thanks again for for for such an awesome podcast. I really enjoy where you are welcome. Jason J. Nick writes in and he says, I just wanted to say what a blessing your podcast has been to my life. Whenever I'm having a bad day and I can't reach a meeting, I turn on your podcast, and all of my selfishness goes away. It grounds me and takes my thoughts off of myself. Your podcast has helped me to stay sober, more than you'd ever think. I'm truly grateful for the stories you take the time to share. What a wonderful hope fulfilling experiences you have on sober speak. Nick, l. Nick, l. Are you so much my friend for writing and I appreciate you listening, and all of the kind words. That's it. Everybody has a wrap for this week of a sober speak episode number 198. We will be back next week most likely with 199. Like I said, I do this one week at a time. And as I mentioned on the beginning of this episode, thank you all so much for a million downloads of this particular silly little podcast. Hopefully we're putting a little bit of good and the word out world out there. God bless you keep coming back. It works. If you work it.



sober, people, step, life, book, david, meeting, sobriety, podcast, friends, episode, talk, therapy, therapist, years, speak, thought, sponsor, big, listening

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