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Transcript: 203- Charlie P- Second Surrender in Alcoholics Anonymous

Updated: Nov 6, 2021

203- Charlie P- Second Surrender in Alcoholics Anonymous


Charlie P 00:00

I'll never forget it. He said, Can we talk? And I said, Sure. And he goes, I'm sober 16 years. He goes, I'm not thinking about drinking, he said, but I can't shake this thought of killing myself. And I thought, let's go sit out. This is the message that I try to give to that guy. That's wondering what's going to be different?

John M 00:26

Well, hello friends of Bill W and other friends, you have landed on sober speak. My name is John M. I am an alcoholic. And we are glad you're all here, especially newcomers, newcomers that is both to recovery as a whole. And newcomers to this podcast. sober speak is a podcast about recovery centered around the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. My job here on sober speak is simple. My job is to provide a platform to the amazing stories of recovery all around us. Consider sober speak, if you will, your meeting between meetings. Please remember, we do not speak for a or any 12 step community. We represent only ourselves. We're here to share our experience, strength and hope with those who wish to come along for the ride. Take what you want, and leave the rest at the curb for the trash man to pick up. Greetings from deep in the heart of Texas. That was the voice of another Texan Mr. Charlie P. That you heard at the beginning of this episode. And you will be hearing so much more from that gentleman in just a moment. But first things first this year episode, Episode Number 203. Or dose? Oh, trace 203. of sober speak is brought to you by Ian and Terry, a Kurt and Todd, and Joshua and Jason and anonymous. What do you say? Did Ian and Terry occurred and Todd and Joshua and Jason and anonymous do what they went to our website. sober speak calm and they clicked on the little dealer donate tab and they made a contribution. Oh, thank you so much. Ian, Terry curtain Todd and Joshua and Jason and anonymous. This episode is coming right out to ya. Thank you so much. They go they go. Cha anyway. I John M just another bozo on the bus will be the chairperson for this meeting between meetings. And I am truly honored and privileged to serve all of you listening in. So take a seat if you will around this virtual table and let's get started. Remember, no matter who you are or what your past looks like, you are welcome here it is an open table to all and we are so excited that you have joined us. So I just thinking last week when I was recording this we had our bearded dragon. I go back and listen to the last show. Last week's episode if you haven't heard it, but anyway, the bearded dragon was behind me it was in the bathtub it was having some challenges to make a long story short, and this week I was just about to crank up and my wife walked into the room with our Oh it looks like a rat. It's like a little baby hamster. I think they call it a dwarf hamster if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, it was just running all across the room and so it was running across the bed was run across everywhere but anyway. They have departed and I am now recording who knows they could come back in while I am recording this both the little rat and the lovely Mrs. m.

John M 04:28

What do I want to talk about today? Well, let's just go right on into Mr. Charlie P. Charlie p we are calling. This is the third time that Mr. Charlie P has been on the podcast has recorded an EP on the pod and we're calling this one. The second surrender in Alcoholics Anonymous. This would Charlie P is doing is as close I would say to a big book workshop. As we've had on the podcast, and I'm so glad to be bringing this to you all. In this episode, we address the desperation. I say we actually Charlie addresses the desperation of a drowning man. Something that Charlie calls the confirmation bias. What does that you ask? Well, listen in. He also talks about the very manifestations of self and how they manifest themselves. He also talks about fact finding, in fact facing and what Charlie also refers to as the quote, the deal, not the quote, quote, the deal, unquote. Anyway, we have that and much, much more. So sit back, buckle up, enjoy the ride. And without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Mr. Charlie, P. and joy, and we will have plenty Oh, listener feedback at the end of this app. Okay, everybody, so we are back with the one and only Charlie p again, from the Austin Texas area. Well, I just took away part of what I like people to give in their introduction. But Charlie P. Why don't you go ahead, give your Introduce yourself, give her sobriety date if you wish, and then tell people what I just told them where you live in this great land of ours.

Charlie P 06:29

Thank you, john. I'm Charlie. p. I'm a very grateful alcoholic. My I live in Austin, Texas. My home group is the primary purpose group of Alcoholics Anonymous and Austin, we meet on Tuesday nights at 730. Live at 2701 South Lamar forever and often on a Tuesday night, we'd love for you to come see us. And and then we meet on zoom. On Wednesday nights, we've been having a zoom meeting.

John M 06:56

And once again, can you give out the zoom ID for those who are spread across the land and may want to join us?

Charlie P 07:02

We sure hope to see why zoom is 630577473. And there's no password. So funny. We were just I was just talking earlier about I remember last May, and we're speaking in mid July now. But last the May of 2020. I remember people were making appointments for for June, or July. And I was like we're not gonna still be doing this in June. Here we are a year later. And I don't know that we'll ever go back to not having any zoom participation. And it's really, it's a nice effect on the face of I think, you know, for a lot of us old farts to confront technology.

John M 07:55

Right. And when I first started this podcast, I remember talking to people a couple things about number one, what a podcast was, and then I was asking them to join the zoom links and all this sort of stuff. And it was like, What is he talking about? But now it's like, you know, everybody uses this stuff. And it's made my job a lot easier. I can tell you that.

Charlie P 08:20

A lot of good and very little negative I've seen so far.

John M 08:24

So we were delayed a little bit starting today. And I just wanted to cover this real quick because I think it's interesting to me at least you were out shooting shotguns right to go. Why don't you tell folks what you were doing?

Charlie P 08:41

It's one of my favorite things to do. Kenny and I are both heavily involved in competitive shotgun shooting and before anybody gets the wrong idea, you know, we're shooting play targets. And to us our firearm is like a tennis racket or a golf club. You know, we're out there having a lot of fun and fellowship with it. And we go all over the country shooting play targets, it's called sporting clays, and then we just have a lot of fun and fellowship with and in the end today. It was a good day, I actually performed well in one month division and so I came home in a great mood.

John M 09:18

That's great. Is that the one where they go pool pool? Yeah, that's it. That's it. I've watched enough TV. I know what you're talking about. has a license plate that says Paul. Isn't that is it a competitive sport like in the Olympics or anything like that?

Charlie P 09:39

Oh, yeah, they do at the Olympics. And then I have some friends that are on their way to Hungary. I didn't even come close to making the team but there. There's a world event in Hungary next week that a lot of my friends are going to it's just something we came across and you know, we love the fellowship of a and we discovered a nice fellowship in this community to I've said many times that 99% of the people you meet in this sport, he would let babysit your grandchildren.

John M 10:11

Yeah, very nice. So and I want to go ahead you asked me before we started, you know if your voice down or don't gay and I just want to address that because we I think we talked about it on both the past two episodes. And the first time I met you, you were about to go or the first time we were we recorded I should say, you were about to go have a some sort of throat surgery. And then the last time we ended up chatting, you had just gotten out of that. So what why don't you go ahead and update us on your throat and Charlie?

Charlie P 10:45

Well, we'd hoped for a little more smoother results in the US, but I'm not sure we know enough to know it's not cancer. And I just have what they call throat dysplasia, which is a fancy word for there's something wrong with your throat. But I go in every few months, and they look at it seems like about every three years. They either laser treated or but I told the surgeon even if it just keep me walking and talking. And if it doesn't get any better than this, we can deal with it. But I won't. I won't be hitting any high notes.

John M 11:27

No time soon. All right. So the first episode that we recorded with you is called I thought I just changed my mind. And basically, you laid out the I guess what we call the problem where alcohol is concerned. And then we're going to kind of go into the solution and the plan of action. The next episode that we recorded with you, I call Oh, so our troubles we think are basically of our own making. So this is our third time together. And if I remember right, from last time, where we were going to pick it up was with the how and the why of it. So talk to me about where you want to take this conversation next and what kind of thoughts you want to share?

Charlie P 12:21

That's great question, john. You know, this runs along a lot along the lines of how I'd sit down with somebody, too, if I you know, in that first meeting, we would spend about an hour and 15 minutes talking about step one, physical allergy and the mental obsession, and then the mental blank spot, which drives us into the need for power. And then some talk about the power and prejudice behind it in the second step. But one of the things I talked about, I'm sure is that I had my biggest spiritual awakening, when I've been sober a long time, I've been sober 17 years, when I had my biggest spiritual awakening, my sobriety date is March 22, of 1985. And this message of this what I, what I call, this is the second surrender. And that's what I want to talk about. And it's it's a it's a powerful message for the new person, but it's really, I speak a lot to people that have either they're coming back in to a and for a whole bunch of people, you know, I talked about how much I missed in some of those earlier years. And I used to be embarrassed to talk about how much I've missed it because I worked the program like the problem was alcohol. I used to be embarrassed by how much I've missed until I realized how much company

John M 13:44

when you say missed Are you talking about kind of how you miss the target, so to speak.

Charlie P 13:49

Well, I missed my the biggest mistake I see being made in a assuming there are any mistakes being made. What's kind of my experience the first time it was basically are you alcoholic, and we didn't spend a great deal of time talking about what that means as far as physical allergy, mental obsession, that sort of thing, the way it lays it out in the doctor's opinion in the first 44 pages. But then, when we started talking about Do you believe in God, I struggled with that one like about half of us do but one of the things I've seen in my experiences when you really found that step one experience, you have less work to do it in the second step because I don't know why I'd give a flip about a power greater than myself. If I still think that my power might get the job done. But when you're crushed by this awareness that on my own power, I got no shot. Well then I get real flexible by this other power and I love where it says we in our turn on page 27 it says they when it came their turn, sought the same escape with the desperation of a drowning Man, I've always said, one of the great things about working with drowning man, is they don't ask a lot of heady questions. It's not like you're gonna go part maybe, before we proceed, you know, how's this gonna go? You know, how much experience you have with drowning man? And you know, I used to think he needed to tell me, I need to know what we're gonna do. how's it gonna go? What's it gonna feel like while we're doing it, what's the end result kind of and, and I thought it was really important that I approve of the whole process. But when I'm pounded with this surrender, there's a there's a willingness trap to that surrender, that drives me into this ex work. But the big mistake I see a man made is going right from however you get there from are you? Do you believe in God and skipping this body of work in Pages 60 to 63. And the way that happens is for most for a whole bunch of people. You go from ABC, that a that Jacqueline cannot manage her own lab. But now we know what that means B that probably no human power could relate back and see that God could it would if we were sought. And the next line after that says, being convinced we were at step three. So that tells me that a, b and c do a pretty good job of summing up one and two. But we went for a whole bunch of us in mainstream a, you go right from that one and two to the third step prayer. And the N get me for a whole bunch of us. The entire experience of the third step is just doing a third step prayer. And that was my experience for a long time. I've been in places where I was going to do a workshop on the third step and and people go, What do you mean, a workshop on the third step? What is there other than the third step? You know, and you hear people say stuff like, well, the third step is just a decision. And for a lot of us, it was about God and just believe in a God. But this piece that we started on last is what I call the second surrender. And the first surrender is the surrender to booze and whatever else drove us to our knees. It got us into these rooms to begin with. But we switched to that thing last week where we had gotten to on page 62, where it said, so our troubles we think are basically our own make him and it says they arise out of but above that it says selfishness, self centeredness, that we think is the root of our trouble, whose way they that founders are saying that they think that the root of our troubles is not vodka. It's selfishness, and self centeredness. And that's what I missed for a long time. It says, it turns out that vodka never was my problem. Vodka was the only thing I've ever found, that would ease the discomfort of a life based on selfishness, and self centeredness. So a lot of times, the reason I like to talk so much about this is because

Charlie P 18:01

it's such a powerful message for God, either one or two groups, or all of us, but once it seems really appeal to is when you got a chronic relapse, or it's been in anatomy I for 1418 years, and he's coming back, and he's thinking for a whole bunch of people, going back to AIA are doing a again, not drinking, and going back to those meetings. And if you got it the way I got it, that will keep me sober, right up to the point that I blow my brains out or get loaded again. And the wonderful package of untreated alcoholism is that I get to drag all my loved ones through that period of time with me. And when that guy's coming back on what's gonna be different this time. This is a powerful message, or my other favorite target audiences, when you got people that have been in rooms who are what I call a middle management. There's a lot of message of hope for the new guy there. But I'm sick of losing middle management, you know, the, the eight year the 15 year, the 25 year guy, you know, that's that, that you know, and I had a guy come up to a conference one time, and he was speaking, and I'll never forget it. He said, Can we talk and I said, Sure. And he goes, I'm sober 16 years. He goes, I'm not thinking about drinking. He said, but I can't shake this thought of killing myself. And I thought, let's go sit down. And this is the message that I try to give to that guy. That's wondering what's going to be different. And so when it got to that piece that says, selfishness, we met invariably we made decisions based on self we talked about that basis means the underlying foundation, or the fundamental principle in my life is that I'm running this thing. We're all 168 said, the first requirement is step three is that I be convinced that any life run on self will, can hardly be a success. I don't think we had the information on page 60 to be convinced to that yet. So it's a it's a, it goes into what I said last time are two very fair questions for the guy I'm working with as which is what? When we say we want you to turn your will in your life over the care of God? It would be a fair question for him to go Okay. All right. But what do you mean by that? And what do you want me to do? And last week we got, so it spans over to the bottom of 62. Talking about what we mean. And then that's what we finished last week, it says above everything, we call it, we did the thing about extreme example, of self well, right, right. I usually don't think some of the reasons I don't think so as I always look at my motives. And in this delusion, and if everybody would have done right, you know, it would have gone a lot better. But you know, these knuckleheads I'm trying to work with, you know, what's the use. And we get over here and it says, We above everything, we must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us. And then here, we bring God into against us, God makes that possible. We can't just have this conversation and go, you know what, I got? That knucklehead from Texas is right. I'm gonna be less selfish. You know, it's in my DNA. It's my, it's my default reaction is is selfish and adult.

John M 21:36

Do you see a lot of people get disappointed when it comes to that God makes it possible thinking. I wasn't expecting that.

Charlie P 21:49

No, in fact, I think we have to nudge it back to the power. Otherwise, it sounds like self awareness is going to fix it. And what we're trying to get, we're not trying to convince this guy that he's got a problem again, we're trying to convince him that he doesn't have an answer. That, you know, just awareness of this, well, you're not going to be any better off than Fred was, you know, when he thought all I need to do is exert my will and stay on my game and self knowledge will take care of it. Just like for Fred, it worked right up till it quit work. You know, it says, neither can we reduce ourselves and as much about wishing, are trying on our own power. We had that of Allah, this line where it says, Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore. But we couldn't live up to, you know, even though we would have liked, neither could we reduce ourselves. So that's the end of what we mean. But look how much I would have missed. If we went right from Do you believe in a power to the third step prayer, you miss this whole body of work that takes place in 60 to 63. I call it the second surrender. And for a lot of us, the second surrender, when we say this stuff, like the guy understands, and they nod their head, like they understand what we're talking about. They don't understand what we're talking about. Because at 36 years sober. I'm doing it this way for a long time. I'm still amazed by the selfishness. And that, I'll tell you a funny story. I had a sponsor that. He said this, I don't have this selfish just like you're talking about anything about this. Okay. And we got beyond it, we got to make the third step. And about a year later, he called me and he goes, when does the selfishness stop? And I'll ask, I know, this was nine years ago, because I haven't been self saying, brother, I don't know the answer to that question. But I know it's more than 27 years. And what I didn't realize is in the third step promises, he doesn't promise itself as this is going to go away. It says, and we're going to talk about that here in just a minute. He says established on such a footing, and we became less and less interested in ourselves. More and more, we became a nation seeing what we could contribute to live. But if I think I'm never gonna run up against it, what would I need the 10th step for, you know, our continuing inventory. So, right here at the bottom of 62, the last new paragraph on the bottom of 62 we've been talking about just what do you mean by that? And what do I do? Well, we're gonna switch here at this is the how and why of it to what we do. And it says, first of all, we had to quit playing God. And then why would I do that? Well, because it says the next three words. It didn't work. You know, we, we, they, there's another book where they say you shall know these men by their fruits. And we say, how's that working out for you? If you run, the show is working out real good, and you don't have any conflict at work or in your family or your wife or rock on, you know, but if you're like me, and you keep hitting walls in sobriety, and hitting walls and in jackpots with, with people, even though I'm trying to do the right thing, this is a new piece of business. And this is what I call the deal. And in my book, right here, it says the deal, what we switched over the house, what we do, and the deal is I'm going to quit playing God, that's funny. The third step decision is not in the third step prayer is right here at the bottom of page 62. And it says, next, we decided, there's a decision that hereafter and this problem is going to give us three comparisons. God's going to be our director, on now this play where we're talking about in the last session, where I'm always trying to run the show, and rearrange the lights about now has a new director, I never was the director, I was an actor, that thought I was the director. And that's why I pissed off so many people.

Charlie P 26:19

And it says, He is the father, we are His children. It's his most good ideas are simple. And this concept, what concept, the concept that I am no longer in management. In the military, they talk about that above my paygrade. And there's just a whole bunch of stuff, that that's above my paygrade. And I am no longer in management. And it says was it this concept was the Keystone, the most important stone, the stone that holds the whole archway together is this thing that I'm not running this thing anymore. And it says this is the Keystone, the new intro, and check it out. We call that the deal. The deal is that I am no longer in management. On page 46 it says, we find that God doesn't make too hard terms for those who seek Him. Well, these are what I call the terms of the deal. The deal is no longer pay. But it says when we sincerely took such a position, what position, the position that God's in charge. And that suits me just fine. Because I'm getting my brains beat out out here trying to run it myself. And for a lot of us. The second surrender comes after we've been sober for years trying to run the show ourselves as sober members of Alcoholics Anonymous. It but now, it's gonna give me the terms of the deal. And it's a very straightforward deal. It says we had a new power employer. Okay, being all powerful. Here's God's rolling in the terms of the deal. Being all powerful. He provided what we needed. Okay, that's pretty good deal, huh? That's God. So yeah. And here's the two terms of my side of the deal. If we kept close to him, and performed his work well. And the thing that I didn't see for a long time, john, is it from here on out, and the rest of the work? There ain't nothing else. Everything we do. This is what we call the pivot point. in recovery, in our process, is where we pivot to everything from here on out is either about staying close to him, or performance work. Well.

John M 28:45

Let me take a little break here. Just real quick. We will be continuing our conversation with Charlie p in just a moment. Just a reminder, you're listening to sober speak you find us on the worldwide web at www dot superspeed. com. You can also find the donate button on our website which you can use if and only if the spirit moves you to do such Please keep in mind this is a podcast funded by you the listener, so to speak is a self supporting organization through our own contributions. We are not allied with any sect, denomination politics, organization or institution. We do not wish to engage in any controversy neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Alright, now back to Charlie P. Charlie, I just want to bring up something here that's been kind of going through my head as you are walking us through this. A lot of times, people come on here and more maybe toward your first episode and, and I know you hear these various talks when you go to conferences, and you've heard all kinds of talks, right? And it's more of a kind of a it's a story. It's something you can listen to, you know, kind of why you drive and you can listen to something like this while you drive. But in your episode, I'm going to suggest the people All, kind of go back or listen to this while you're actually stabilized, if you will, not driving a car or something like that. And you can actually like I am with my big revoke right now as he's talking to go to these various pages, and look at them yourselves. And I will say that you are much more of a technician with the book, as opposed to, you know, kind of going through the stories and all that kind of stuff. I know you attach some stories to it. And I absolutely love that, because this is how actually I, in the beginning, learn the big book from listener, Joe and Charlie tapes, I would sit down with those tapes, I would look at the pages they were talking about. And then I would think about that, you know, I know they would explain it, then I would think about well, how does this apply to me? And that's a lot of what the primary purpose group is about is about looking at these words, you know, kind of diving into them and thinking, you know, asking the God of your understanding into that moment and saying, how does this apply to me, and I've heard elsewhere, or described as inductive type of study throughout the book or anything else that you're looking at? Am I correct?

Charlie P 31:08

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, you have been the beneficiary of some really good sponsorship, I was with Mark Houston, who was sponsored by down prints, bots by Gary Brown, and Paul Martin and Tom powers. And Brett to Dr. Bob. And, and the same with Meyers, sponsored by Cliff who is sponsored by Joe of Joe and Charlie. No, so I love the book. But I have, one of the things I have to watch out for is what I call a confirmation bias. And a confirmation bias is where the reason we work so much with a satisfied prayer is a lot of times when I read the book, I'm not looking for new information. I'm looking for confirmation of ways that I'm already right. So

John M 31:55

we call that again, the confirmation bias,

Charlie P 31:57

confirmation bias. And what it does is is the stuff that I agree with, yep, that's what I always said. And, and but then, you can't tell anything about this. I've already got it highlighted and underlined in my book. But the stuff that doesn't fit into my current belief system, I just let it go right by me, cuz i don't know how i missed this self B's, what I call the self pays for so long, you know, because now what I talked about, we skipped six feet or six feet right? Now, I think my responses are going, Oh, no, I got a sponsor, there's only read three pages out of the big box. We just live in this stuff. And look what happens, you know. So we made this new deal with God, that and when I say God, I'm speaking of the power behind the name God. So when you know, whatever works for you plug it in there, I use God because, you know, but the power will not be defined are by me, I can tell you that. But my belief has moved around over the years. But

John M 33:08

it can we go back to do real quick before you go on. Because I think you brought up something really important just a little bit ago, you brought up the point of the deal. Am I part of the deal being kept close to him and performed his work? Well, I mean, we could spend days talking about just, you know, kept close to him by itself, and formed as his work well by itself. But when you think about keeping close to him, I mean, gosh, what comes to mind is just working the rest of the steps How?

Charlie P 33:47

Well I will speak to that? That's a great question. And I'm not going to spend a lot of time in the third step promises. But he does say established on such a footing, which means the same thing is basis. I love that word basis basic. Basically, Bill use it a lot. So now this new basis, the fundamental premise is that I'm not I'm no longer in management. It says on that new footing, I become less less more and more as you can contribute to life. As I feel listener these for a topic from me as I felt new power flow, is I enjoy peace of mind. As I discovered I could face life successfully. As we become conscious. Here's a huge other word that I've chased through the big book is this word conscious. Because for a long time, I thought the book was trying to move me to a belief in the power or faith in the power. But it talks a whole lot about consciousness of the power where what does God have to do with Saturday? What does God you know, and this this consciousness, it says, the content because as we became conscious of his presence, we began to lose the fear of today, tomorrow or thereafter. Well, and later on, it's just the consciousness of your belief is here to come to you. On page 51. It says here it many 1000s of people who flatly declare that the consciousness of the belief in the power is the most important factor in their life, not the power. And the power has been there. It's not like when I took the third step prayer, God stepped his game up, you know, I mean, it's like he's sitting there on a cigarette break. Oh, whoa. Now, it's my consciousness of this power that's moving. And, and then it says, we were now at step three. And so this is really just an affirmation prayer of the decision we made on the previous page. Now it means something. The first time I did the third step prayer, I just sounded like a bunch of churchy talk, you know, but now when it says, got over myself to get a bill with me, and do with me, as you will relieve me of this bondage of self, I now that means something why so I can have an easier go of it. That was just so I can better do Your will take away my difficulties. Why so I can chill out, watch football. It says know that victory over my difficulties would bear witness to those that would help his power, his love his way of life. May I do Your will always now that prayer really means something to me. And when I do the third step prayer with a guy, we get on our knees app, done it in the hotel lobbies and restaurants, and they say the third step prayer. And then I said the third step prayer, and I promise you, there's some times where I'm feeling it more than he is. But now here's the thing. It says it talks about the different ways, but the next word, the next thing after that, and we will just barely touch on this. But it says Next, we lost the course of vigorous action. Right. And I used to think the course of vigorous action was the amatory. Now I see the course, there's action steps four through nine. And speaking back to the terms of the deal, it's the stakeholders Tam and key performance work well, well, it turns out that I can't stay close to this power, until I get close to this power. And I can't get close to this power when I'm blocked. So now it's changed the whole deal about what's going to happen in this inventory process. So the first step of that biggest housecleaning is of that biggest course of action is a personal housecleaning. So our decision, what decision that can no longer run the show was vital and crucial, it could have little permanent effect, unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face and be rid of the things in ourselves which are blocking us. My wife likes to say that spiritual experience is of no value, if it's not followed by action. And so I use the analogy of a pipeline here. And I've got it drawn in the back of my book. And there's this pipe, and I'm on what me is on one end of the pipe and the power is on the other end of the pipe. But my pipe is clogged up with guilt and remorse and resentment and fear and shame and, and harms and selfishness and those. So what we're going to try to do in steps four through 10 is remove at least enough of what's blocking me that there can be some flow of power through that pipe between me and this power, which we've admitted is our only shot.

John M 38:49

Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that. So you know generally I'm like I said, I'm kind of looking through the book as you're talking. And and I love how technical you are about it. So when you're talking to a sponsee is this basically kind of how you sponsor a guy that you're taking through the book going through all these various steps and such.

Charlie P 39:20

It's exactly how it take the guy through. And right now we're gonna switch over, check out what it says when we roll into the fourth step. I love my buddy Scott l says there's two time references on when you're supposed to start your fourth step. And and he says, He tells us guys you can start on the first time reference or the second time reference or anywhere in between. That seems fair that it

John M 39:45

would you say a first time reference or a second time we talked with you that gives

Charlie P 39:49

it gives us two time references on when we should start our inventory. And he tells us guys you can do it on the first reference or on the second reference or anywhere in between. Let's see Fair. Well listen, it says Next, we lost out on a course of vigorous action. That's a top my friends. And on the next page, it says could have little permanent effect unless at once. So he says, He tells us guys, you can do it next. or anywhere in between.

John M 40:23

The idea is to get cracking, right? That's right. And so and and you know, and I've seen this many times, I know you have, you know, you get to this third step people do it, they're all kind of excited. And then you say, Okay, now, it says at once, and then they disappear for a while.

Charlie P 40:41

Well, and they go into discussion meetings, where if they say, I'm working on my fourth step, there's this collective groan like, he's going into boot camp. But when the truth is, we should be cheerleaders for this guy, saying, Oh, my God, you're entering in a process that can set you free, you know. And he says, it was an I love this, it says, Therefore, we started upon a personal inventory. Well, therefore, means based on what we just been saying. So I like to say whenever you see, therefore, in the book, you got to ask yourself, what's that, therefore, therefore, based on everything we just said, we're going to start this personally. And here's the way I want to tie this to this self pays, that says, taking a commercial inventory is a fact finding fact facing process. One, my belief now is that as the sponsor, my job is the fact finding. And his job is the fact facing. And it says, to get rid of these things properly and without regret. Now check this out middle of the pipe six before we did exactly the same things they been. We've and they are founders did exactly the same thing with their lives. They searched out the flaws in their makeup, which caused their failure, check this line out, if I missed the self piece in the third step. What did I do? That's what I'm talking about that confirmation bias? What did I do when I got to this line? It says, being convinced that self manifested in various ways was what had defeated us. We considered selves common manifestations. So check it out on page 60. It says the first requirement is to not be convinced that a lot from self well can hardly be a success. And over here on 64, it says, being convinced that self was what it did for you to me. So we believe in turning statements into questions. And this book right here, I put ama, am I convinced? And so if, if already is, I have to be commands on 64. It says being convinced, that tells me the work of 60 to 64 has been to convince me that my life run on self will has no chance of being fulfilling. And it says And so now, it changes the whole drive of the inventory. Because my first inventory was just kind of a confession of stuff I felt bad about when the terrible exercise, but that what I see now and now it says being convinced itself is what a defeat has to be turn that sentence around. It says that the fourth step is now a consideration of the common manifestations of self. So now I'm back to this new guy going Okay, Charlie, I'm with you. I'm with you. I understand self or whatever, but what am I looking for? And I go well, we're gonna take a look at the common ways itself shows up. And the first one is resentment as a manifestation of self, the fear inventory as a manifestation of the failure of self reliance and in the sex inventory, manifestations of self when the sexual instinct is aroused. not mere you of course, but some people right some people, right, good selfish around sexual.

John M 44:23

Fortunately, we're spiritually evolved.

Charlie P 44:25

Oh, yeah, yeah. But, you know, looking at the way So now, when you got this guy that's going what's going to be different. And this is, if I get an hour with the guy or an hour and a half of the guy, we're going straight to this self pays. Oh, I'm gonna say I'm gonna start off by saying, what what do pages 6263 main two, and because for for a lot of us, there's a new experience available in this third step. And it changes the way I route inventory. It changes my six and seven, it changes is what I do in a man's way, if I missed it in the third step, and I missed it in the fourth step, look what it says at the end of the inventory process, when you skip over to page 71. We hope you were convinced now that God can remove whatever self will has blocked you off. What am I convinced for that? Then we get over into the man's process. And it says on 76, it says, we attempt like what we're doing any man's process, we attempt to sweep away the debris, which is accumulated out of our effort to live life on self well, and run the show ourselves. It's all over the program. And I missed it for 17 years. You know, so I couldn't figure out why I was blowing up marriages and always in jackpots at work and stuff like that.

John M 46:02

So I think that is a good spot to pause. If you would be okay with that. And we didn't really talk about this beforehand. But would you be willing to come back and talk about that turning point, if you will, for you after 17 years, and what they meant to you and continue on with some of this with some of the book?

Charlie P 46:29

Absolutely. I'd love to I'm really enjoying what we're doing.

John M 46:33

I'm glad Charlie, and I've enjoyed meeting you. And listen, I want to tell you this, too. I and I thought about whether they're talking about this on air or not. But you know what, I'm just gonna throw it out there. Because this is this kind of how I am what I do. Sometimes when you hear the term primary purpose group, there are people that I know that I don't know, for whatever reason they think it's legalistic, or they have a bad impression of it or something like that. I've never actually been to a primary purpose group meeting and is basically because it's just not near me. But you know what? I don't, all I know is I know you, I love you to death. You are a good man. Have you ever heard that before? Am I just

Charlie P 47:28

Oh, sure. There are people that in their fervor of big book awareness, and you tend to go out and I've said for many years, people rarely respond to a message of, you know, you guys are killing people with your watered down message. I mean, it's not like people are gonna slap their forehead and go, Oh, thank God, you came by, you know, we would have killed people in our ignorance. No, but when you talk about, I saw it this way. And I had this experience. I looked at this way of having a much better experience. I now I am a technician. I don't mind that label. Because I do think we used to be a recovery program with a support fellowship. And now somehow we've turned into a lot of areas of sobriety fellowship with an optional program. You know, I mean, take your time. To me, there's an artist, that's about it. I love but I really love to be able to wake up people that have been there from it.

John M 48:50

Yeah. And here's what I could tell you from working with Charlie, and Katie thus far, and that is, I could tell you how people are off mic, if you will, and how they handle things like technical difficulties and their you know, their phone calls and their text messages and, and all that kind of stuff. And Charlie i is just a gentleman and a half, you know, I'm sure you've had your moments before. I mean, I know I have. I have just like thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed our time together. And and I look forward to more, you know, this is gonna be cool. So

Charlie P 49:34

we too, this is what the way I sponsor and and so I'd love to talk more about it because we're, we're basically just rolling in avatar.

John M 49:42

Right? And you know, and this is the closest thing that I have thus far on the podcast. So what I would call a big book study or workshop. That's correct. Yep. And, and I love it and that's why I want to continue on and get through the rest of the pages and you No. And as you know, I'm going to have your wife on eventually she can come in and correct all your mistakes. I'm sure I'll be

Charlie P 50:06

careful. I've said many times that Katie's kind of like getting a drink from a firehose.

John M 50:14

You get a little more than you were expecting. below. Look forward to that. All right, well, listen, God bless you. I'm going to read if I can find it here. But page 164 from the book, book, fortunately, I have it out because it's Charlie and I are having a conversation about the book and page 164 says, abandon yourself to God as you understand God at MIT, your faults to him, enter your fellows. clear away the wreckage of your past. give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the fellowship of the Spirit. That's an all capital letters By the way, and you will surely me some of us, like me, and Charlie P. As you trudge the road of happy destiny. May God bless you and keep you Until then, Charlie P. Once again, my friend, thank you for joining me today.

Charlie P 51:08

God bless you as well. JOHN. Had a great time.

John M 51:12

Come on now. Thank you so much, Mr. Charlie P. Really appreciate you and we will look forward to having you back on the podcast again. Now, on to a little bit of listener feedback from humans. Sabine writes in hope I'm sevens being the SA bi n. Probably not pronouncing it right. But hey, I'm doing my bet. Oh, I don't know if you can hear it. But I have a leaf blower guy outside my window right now somebody is mowing lawns and blowing leaves and Oh, just the sound of the city. It's so pleasant. So meditative. Just kidding. Anyway, Sabine writes in and the subject line is enjoying the podcast he says, Hey, john. Sure am enjoying the podcast. I've been trying to get sober now for about a year but I've only been to meetings consistently. for about two months. I have 27 days sober this time around. So I am plummeting toward toward my 30 day chip you you plummet away was just Sabine. He says I am a 45 year old special education teacher from Central California. And it has taken me a long time to admit that I have a problem with drinking much less that I need a program like a but my goodness, these meetings are like meditation for my soul, and your podcast is the same right now. I'm going back and listening to all the Reno john episodes and really enjoying it. He's great. He says also, I really appreciate your witty informative comedic banter at the beginning of each episode thank you so much for your light hearted presence while also doing the heavy lifting of providing providing constant for dues like me, who are working through our character defects. I sent a request on Facebook to join your super secret Facebook group and I'm looking forward to interacting with y'all namaaz stay and jaw bless j h bless Sabine H and I believe if I am not mistaken jaw is God basically and I think it could be from like a rustic barbarian type of God if I'm not mistaken but nonetheless nama stay you can see it right now so being but I'm doing you know like the nama stay hands and jaw bless. Right back at you. Thank you so much for running as Sabine by the way. There are those who may disagree with your fact that I have a witty informative and comedic banter, some people that just gets on their nerves, but I do appreciate the cover. Thank you so much. And we're glad to have you in that super secret Facebook group. I know you made it in so if there's anybody else out there who is wondering about this, this super secret Facebook group that Sabine refers to just search for secret you don't have to put the super in there. A gentleman named Dave here that listens to the podcast actually gave that nickname many moons ago actually. But if you just search for the secret Facebook group for sober speak, you'll see a you should find you can't see who's in it by the way. Because that's why we call us secret, but you can ask to be admitted. And we will admit you in it just don't sound crazy or something like that. Right. So when you venture in, Nick Wright said, he says morning, john, I think you wrote this in the morning. What do you think? Nick? Ella here from Cincinnati, or Cincinnati has some people call it he says, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate you. Also, Episode 90 with Brenda j was in big capital letters outstanding. Yes. If you haven't heard Episode 90 with Bernard J. Go back and listen to it. You can find it. You can. Oh gosh, if you go to our website, you're not exactly sure how to find it. You click on podcast and then there's a little search feature just type in Brenda's name. You'll see her with about three or four different episodes, but

John M 55:53

you can definitely find Episode 90 in there he's in he says, Nick writes, so much laughter in tears came from me. While listening to that episode. Another one that I really enjoyed are all of the Gary k episodes his wisdom in the life of a truly inspires me to stay sober. And give me straightforward direction to the path I should lean toward God Willing on the seventh, I will be 60 days sober. Good for you neck. I started on episode one of sober speak. And now I'm on episode 97. You've got about halfway through there, my friend. He says thank you so much for your time you put into sober speak also, are you having an upcoming live event anytime soon? I would love big capital letters to come. Thanks, Nick L. Well, Mr. Nick, we would love to have you from Cincinnati. And I'll make sure to put out an announcement. You know, in fact, we had Gary k scheduled to be live on one of our last times before COVID it basically. And we never got him out here. And so I would love to have Gary and other speakers and do some live events. There's a couple things. Number one, we're still dealing with all these various variants or whatever various variants of the COVID. And I just want to wait till things kind of settled down a little with that. And then, you know, it's just a little bit of time putting it together making sure that we got all the i's dotted and the T's crossed. But I will be sure Mr. Nick l to make an announcement if and when we have another live event here in the Dallas area. But thank you for asking you about it. Marie writes in and she said Oh, and the title was Don m episode. So she listened to Don m the episode we had there. And she's that hey, john, a couple of months ago, my friend john, who now lives in Indiana started forward forwarding me these awesome recovery tax every day. It's the first thing I read when I wake up most mornings I hadn't listened to what to one of your podcasts in over a month because life has been hectic. Today I randomly chose the dawn episode Don m episode and I was listening. And it hit me that he is the guy who composes these texts that my friend sends me a big smiley face. She says it was great to put a voice to the text and hear more from him. I love sober speak, and I won't stay away so long again. She says I really missed it in your joyful silliness. Don't ever change. Oh, thank you so much there, Marie. Oh, and she says yesterday, I have five years of sobriety Marie That's fantastic. And I'm so grateful for the a program I'm so grateful for people like you who give them a give of themselves so freely in order to help others you do a great job of carrying the message. Thank you for your service peace and love Marie m well that made my day when I saw thank you so much Marie. I really do appreciate it and I as you know passed on that message to dawn m as well. Mandy writes in she says war will lead to an essential way oh man. Maybe she didn't say any of that. Some of you may know that song Mandy others of you may not infer both camps of people you probably just would rather have not ever that but anyway. Manda she says hi John M. This is Mandy am and I just got done listening to Matthew Am I currently live in Portland, Oregon. And then she puts in parentheses keep Portland weird. Well, that port those port la Indians are a little out there of Miss A Mandy she says anyway, I wanted to reach out and express how much this podcasts over speak means to me and has helped me in my sobriety. I take off on my walks and I get lost and listening to your speakers. I especially enjoy Matthew Am I haven't felt emotion or cried like that and I don't know how long I also wanted to thank you for Andrew a for helping me with my weight loss. Every time I reach for a donut I think she says I think of fat Ashley and then big smiley face and laughing faces. So if you haven't heard Andrew a talk about that, Ashley that's probably not going to it says to you that I think that's fantastic. She says John M Thank you. Please keep this podcast and your silly banter.

John M 1:00:53

There goes my silly banter stuff. Going is become a comfort to hear your voice. Oh, you'd fit right in here in Portland keep Portland weird. Well, I do they got fit, right. I've been to Portland. I love for like, I love Seattle. I love that whole Northwest area. But, boy, thank you. And so now I'm kind of picturing you walking out in the streets of the woods are all those trees that you guys have up there throughout that area, having your little earbuds in listening to my silly little podcast and I'm so glad I can be. We can be part of your journey. Thank you. Mandy Am I appreciate her Oh my. Why am I okay, so I'm singing like, I'm singing Mandy, but kind of like an Elvis voice not necessarily Barry Manilow so it doesn't even make sense. But you know, it's just how my brain works. Jeff writes in and the subject line is father bill episode. So we had a couple of recent episodes are with Father bill W. Yes. Father, Bill. w I love his name. Anyway. He says john, hope you are well. Well, thank you, Jeff. I am. He says I really enjoyed part one of the episode with Father bill. I related to his story. I liked the part where he said he thought he had only two choices. One was to go to Australia and keep drinking or to go to India. Well, he says I live in Australia and I did go to India. And I spent time on the ashram. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. He says and he said he did find another option, as I did. I was in sobriety when I went to India. Thank you for your services. So many wonderful speakers. Kind regards, Jeff. And as you know, Jeff, I pass that on to father bill. And I know he was very appreciative to hear from you. As he said, We always love hearing from the Aussies. Thank you so much, Frankie. I it's just like the first word I thought over Australia. Anyway, Michelle writes in she says, Hi, john. I live in Nate Natick, ma t IC K, Massachusetts, and I will have 10 year sobriety on September 14. Well, congratulations, Michelle. I hit my rock bottom is September 14 of 2011. And it changed my life for the better. Part of that story many times, she says I was circling the drain when I came into the halls of AIA and I listened to your podcast every Sunday morning when I'm walking my dogs at our State Park. And it changes my day always. Well, there's another Walker listening to sober speak. I always like to hear kind of like what people are doing when they're listening to the pie. Well, I like to let me let me rephrase it. I want to hear like your G and PG rated type of stuff. Maybe a little r, but nothing really, you know. Anyway, I was like, hear what people are doing when they're listening to the podcast? Because I you know, I think about it all the time. I'm like, you know, we're sending this out into the airwaves, who's listening to this, what are they doing? But nonetheless, she says my daughter used to live in Tae hos she says taxes. And then she when she moved there in 2013 and moved to a little town outside of Austin called Dale, and I love Texas. Thank you for all you do. And I'm really looking forward to the secret Facebook group. Well, we're excited to have you in the secret Facebook group as well. Michelle have a great Sunday, she says Michelle And last, but definitely not Lee, not least, Laura writes in Laura says hi john. Thank you for your wonderful podcast. I've been sober since January twit. Twix January 26. of 1987 and podcasts have been an amazing tool during COVID. I am in Redondo Beach in the LA area we you know, Laura, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. I believe that both Steve l who we've had on the pod and Bill C, live right in that area as well. And I'm sure there's a lot of other people that live there. But those first few people came to mind. She says I got hooked on sober speak after listening to you and David G. loved those episodes. Thank you for all you do, Laura. W will Miss Laura W. Thank you for writing in and all your wonderful feedback. Sure. do appreciate. Yeah. All right, everybody. That wraps up another episode of sober speak.

John M 1:05:53

Love you guys. Keep coming back. It works if you work it. I'll take this a week at a time. Hope to be back next week. We shall see God bless you. And like I say keep coming back. Bye Bye now.


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